Am I, or a loved one, involved with a Harmful Group? Find out

depression

Info-Culte,  a prominent and well respected Canadian association that studies harmful groups and relationships, explains their 35 year trajectory. And how “the field” has changed over the years. The address by founder, Mike Klopfeld will give the reader insight into how people are drawn into harmful groups and why so many concerned people study the phenomenon of charismatic Pied Pipers who lead the unwitting on a merry chase out of their minds and money.

by Mike Kropveld

Article based on a presentation given at the Beijing International Academic Symposium on Cultic Groups and Religious Culture, Beijing, China, August 15–16, 2015:

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9 thoughts on “Am I, or a loved one, involved with a Harmful Group? Find out”

  1. If well the idea that people are ill because they sinned is bad for the girls in Regnum Christi, because if the people in charge of the girls think the girls suffer only if they sin, then when these girls get psychosomatic illnesses and anorexia, the people in charge of them, instead of thinking, “our treatment of girls is inadequate and so modifying their behaviour in training centers, think that the girls must be sinners or they would not get an illness.not the only ill that such a the same idea is bad in other circumstances. Such an medieval manner of seeing the role of God, brings others in contact with the Legion of Christ into deep trouble. i have heard from those i believe to be legionaires that abused boys would not have been abused had they not been sinners, that such an argument excuses pederasty would be another great ill that has its root in thinking that God does not hurt the good.
    . I dont know if the person i know who says they are part of the legion is representative of allof this group because that person is one person but if shthis person is then they dont only think that ill people are ill because they have sinned but also think the unfortunate are so because they sinned.
    This means that if you mention boys or girls who have been sexually abused, you get the reply, “they did something to deserve it”.

    I have heard another reply from street recruiters, which has been, “they were sexually mature weren’t they”. the same people who had tried to insist that i was sexually mature the minute i had had the period which was not the case much as i kissed boys. I problaby would not have kissed so many boys had I been sexually awake.
    Two people, as i remember it,have given me that answer, when i talked of priests who abused the young, that the young were sexually mature. That is a pretty big percentage of those who i have talked of this subject,it is not a subject i touch on often in conversation.
    I have children , my once thirteen year old was twelve the year before my child reached the age of thirteen and eleven the year before that, to hear people talk as if they can touch someone who is so recently out of childhood because the children they say are sexually mature, is difficult for the person who hears such an argument.
    Finding oneself obliged to talk of how it is different for a virtual child to touch themselves or to have some sort of contact with children of their own age, from them being touched by what for them, if i remember myself at that age, are venerable and somewhat frightening adults, be they only thirty, or twenty or sixteen is hard and more so when you find that they don’t think your feeling that the child is very close to childhood is an argument of weight and you find yourself frustrated to say the least by their desire to be thick and insensitive.
    Sex is a activity in which people are vunerable even when these people are adults. Those who love their children should hope that in a relationship that includes sex, there will be some sort of equality, they will both be able to speak of their wishes and desires and neither will be humiliated by the other.
    I have talked of two arguents of the church to lessen the seriousness of pedophilia, the arguement that the children could never have been hurt if they had not been sinful and the argument that they were sexually mature, in the case of young teens.
    My question to the church would be, “you believe that God does not let bad things happen to people who are good? Is this very religious thought, at least very religous some five six hundred years ago,yours or just the Legions. If it is yours, does not this turn you into very primitive religion. Is not this letting the victim take the blame for what the abuser does?
    Does not God,in the ways of this world he has created, make sure there are consequences for our bad acts? If we abuse people we have to know that we have made them suffer, how else would we advance in kindness and goodness? How else would we understand that brutality is wrong. If God saved a child from the psychic consequences of sexual abuse, would not the brutal be able to abuse whenever they wanted without feeling guilty. There need to be tragic consequences to our actions for those we hurt not for ourselves or we would not have to grow spiritually. We might be willing to take our own sufferign, dont we have to see that we make others suffer?
    I would ask how Rome dares go against the findings of so many thinkers and psychologists who say that you cannot touch children immature teenagers, without putting at risk their psychological integrity and spiritual growth, wIthout them becoming embittered and cross and taking to drink and drugs and even comiting suicide and not because they were sinful but because they were sinned against.
    Suicide is considered the worst sin by the religious, who dont follow the findings of psychology, which are that having a bad time in childhood can create depression, s that it is childhood lacks of attention not the sinfulness of the person that causes depression.
    Are the church crazy. I would like to tear those who think it is fine for many to touch children to shreds:That is an expression of my frustration, really i believe you have to allow everyone time to redeem themselves even pederasts. Mayb e i would change my mind if it was my child who was touched.
    Is what the legionaires say , that the children would not have been abused had they not been sinful orthodox catholic doctrine. If it is, will the church please say as much and have the strength to take the loss of faithful that will must occur if they are absolutely up front about their more terrible bits of faith.
    the church tends to htink the faithful get cross with them because the faithful dont like beign criticised: it is time to ask the church what it thinks it up to instead of allowing the church to be the one who tells others off when the churhc shows so many signs of being irresponsible. Of beign a lot of grumpy old men who find an excuse for anythign that they consider their juresdiction.

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  2. I have one more comment on what i have commented on before, on how a belief that God would not allow bad things to happen to good people makes the legionaires cruel , which i suppose is a sort of charism because it is a belief in God miraculously affecting our lives, much as it is obvious that if we are not kind to people that person suffers and so we have to see that our actions have effectsso we have to be personally responsible for what we do. We cannot hope God will sort things out and make sure we dont hurt good people.
    The third thing i have heard the legionaire I know best say, the one i know but who will not say she is such to others, that excuses a lack of care about some major ill such as illness and abuse, is that the Jews must have done something to deserve the holocaust. She also says that though the holocaust was not good it was not bad, in other words she seems to excuses the holocaust, and one reason she does so is that legionaires seem to believe that, God would not let bad things happen except to bad people.

    . If what she says is something that is common to other legionaires, then it is proof that she is what she says she is to me. All of you can prove what i cannot prove because you know past members of the legion who can say that what this person says is something that echoes with them or not, if not, I have been duped.
    Legionnaires and street recruiters of other sects try to make it impossible to complain about them because they don’t say they are such in so many wordsh It is their conversation that makes it impossible to believe they are anything else, so i am always forced to find a way to complain about them though I dont have rock hard evidence that they are such. Plenty of circumstantial evidence though. A ll i can say about writing here is that the number of people with like experiences is what could give verity to my complaints.

    I also know that a long drawn out expose of their techniques makes these easier to understand for others so i am determined to give such. I know that if one person gives long drawn out exposes of such matters it becomes easier for others to do so themselves.
    It is not just that i am determined to give long drawn out exposes, it is that if i dont I start to suffer stress. I am sure it is necessary to work out this problem of the churches fundamentalism which seems to me new but which I realise has been in the offing for decades, to work out what seems to me to be return to an orthodoxy that has its roots in the Inquisition and try to re/introdue a kinder more christ like catholisism. . I dont believe in just saying that I am no longer catholic, which is the truth, so the argument is not my business, so many other people are catholic and so for me not to argue with the church from a religious point of veiw about the rougher part of the church when I think I can help to do so, is to leave others in the lurch.
    In Spain, the atheists just say, “what do i mind about Catholics plight” I am not catholic. They don’t try to expose to the catholic part of the country the worst points in the church, They don’t do their best to better the church. Spain is one of the places that had a long experience of the strictest and most suffocating side of the church. For me this attitude of the atheists here is irresponsible, you should not leave the part of the population that is Catholic to suffer from a Catholicism that has not reformed itself and is unduly strict and also, doing so has a price, the immoderate sects, the immoderate Catholics, may convert atheists children, who are left in an immoderate church that their parents could have made less extreme.
    In my childhood and adolescence the church in England was apologetic for old ways, that they said no longer existed, for example telling orphan girls that they will turn out like their mothers, which maybe one type of nun saw as a way to make their charges good but that can be seen as negative suggestion and also as cruel to the little orphan girls. Magdalen Sister type treatment. Strct catholicsim was not seen as good in the sixties was an embarrassment to the church..

    If I leave writing about this for two weeks or so, as I have this last two weeks, I start to suffer from a type of stress that makes me feel vague and very uncomfortable discomfort in my whole body. The legion is very frightening and not doing something about such a menace has its consequences for me.

    Paul Lennon, you have been a priest, what are the theological answers to those whose take their faith in,Gods taking care of us, to unreasonable levels. as in we would not have cancer if we were good. I I once trusted in faith not common sense when i tried to help tramps in Madrid and God did not look after me in this well intentioned effort, which made my chidren look rather stupid. A mother who talks to tramps does not increase a childs cache. I should have sured up my own position first, With the husband i had there was no way of suring up my position. I should have been religious and real. I like religion, with a lot of misgivings about it now, I bet their are parts of Buddhism that are every bit as bad as the legion is, but for methere is not necessity for religion to be of one group or of another.
    I am not a great theologian but I learnt something from the Assumption Convent nuns . Th eones who taught such things as literature, art and religion taught exceptionally well,. I later went to a more famous school but the teachers there were not always as good as these nuns. I only learnt religion till the age of fourteen it was not an o’level subject i had chosen. However with what i do know I am sure that how far you just trust in God to look after people, has to be a point that theologians have argued about in the past. I am sure that arguing to what point God wanted the poor to be poor, that is why they were born that way’, must have been a part in the battle to introduce the changes of the welfare state, but i have not studied the arguments of different saints and theologians.

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  3. Please move my pieces or just file them as you want.
    I looked up sexual abuse of children a few months ago and read these statistics.
    Women who have been sexually abused as children are four times as likely to comite suicide in adult life as members of the general public and men eleven!
    I think it is important for people to realise how damaging sexual abuse to children is.

    I wonder if girls are less effected because girls are more likely to have been taught to accept servile relationships and humiliating circumstances than men are, one part of which is that they are often taught to let their husbands dominate in a relationship or so it seems to me.
    They maybe often do not expect life to treat them as royally as boys are taught to do. Also, boys are often taught that part of their sexual identity is in them taking the reins of the situation among adults . Being abused must feel like a very big loss of any pretence of handling a human situation. I think girls are often taught to bare rather than handle group interactions, to be patient with everyone. Bare the old etc and other adults in order to look after them.
    I have read that what each person learns to imagine is what is expected of them as a member of their sex forms an important part of there goals in life and self image.
    When psychiatrists say that sexual abuse effects the children’s self image, I suppose that part of the problem sexual abuse causes to self image is that, much as children always lack autonomy, to be at someone beck and call as a sex object is a much bigger lack of autonomy than others classes of lack of power to organise ones own day . It must mean they suffer from an enormous feeling of helplessness and powerlessness.They maybe saw themselves as quite something and suddenly they are nothing. They are the children in the mine in Spielberg’s film about the wicked Indian who had enslaved a whole lot of children. I am not very familiar with the plot, I am not sure who enslaved the children and other people.
    To talk about childrens problems with their identity because of their powerless position is to talk without mentioning the psychic problems that must arise from being forced to do an act you hate with someone who repulses you and maybe becoming aroused sexually, sexual arousal being a activity that involves pleasant sensations just because of tactile acts, not because you are with friends and in a happy situation. So, a mental confusion of no small nature.

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  4. When i read that child sex abuse effected the persons later spiritual development, it was as the comment of a psychiatrist, so i thought in terms of the development of their inter-relation with other humans which I see as being what psychiatrists think of when they talk of people spiritual development. It is strange to be in a religious atmosphere in which spiritual development has to do with attachment to a religion.
    I had, some years before hearing that sexual abuse of children undermined the victims later spiritual development, listened to the men whose complaints were published in The Boston Globe a newspaper famous for exposing child abuse by priests in the region, I had heard one of these men say that people found them, the men who had been abused as children hard to live with and that they were difficult husbands.
    I wonder if being abused makes people feel that the rest of the world should have been able to help so it leads them to despise others, people who were not directly involved in the abuse, as pusillanimous or false and whether this does not make them scornful of others and mean to them.
    In a book I have just read, “Orphan of Islam” the writer, it is a autobiography, who is abducted as a teenagers to be sent to a Madrassa in Pakistan, by his own family, bound and gagged to be taken to live in one, ends up being very cross with his family and finding it impossible to imagine ever forgiving them. He remained a holy person, a person who liked going to prayers and such, though he was not able to forgive his family for riding over him rough shod.
    Of course there are those who deny the religiosity of anyone who falls short in their religion, as in who are not able to forgive, which is a way to twist the arms of people who fall short, they can be made afraid that their failure means they are not Christian or whatever religion they belong to. Religious people try to overcome their failings for their religions sake, they don’t have to have managed to have overcome all faults to be called Christian.

    To pretend falling short of all christian demands is not to be a Christian, is one of the legion’s ways of hard arming people. and their excuse for hard arming people is that to do so helps them bring these people into line, and so assures they shove them willy nilly through heavens gates, which is their job and which is good. They forget that too much a hard arming may have the opposite effect.
    This is one example of how they manipulate people, in this case by changing the norms about what is considered Christian. Who ever thought all Christians had been born saints.The effort to overcome short coming is a sign of religiosity, not a sign of lack of it.
    This argument also serves them when they want to ridiculise people who take interest in some other religion, they say these people cannot call themselves Buddhists or whatever because they fall short of the rules of that religion. It is a trick they have played on me.

    . If you read book Alexander Khan’s book “Orphan of Islam”, you would feel that he himself will try to bring himself into line with his religions requirements, which is what more religious people generally strive to do but that at the moment he still can’t forgive his family and anyway he is scared of what they might do to him, he knows what they are capable of.
    People cant always forget cruel actions they are not psychologically capable of it at least not at that moment. The mind does not always do what its owner would have it do.

    Do the abused boys feel cross with everyone after having been abused? The sort of cross that makes those who feel it meaner eople and more vengeful ones. Suppose not all do.

    I was of the sort of religiosity that accepted what others did to me, till i bumped into advisers who were I now believe, legioniares. Psychiatrists say that forgiving and forgetting and imagining destructive others will do better next time and so trusting again, is better for people because they move on to the next thing, forget and love again, instead of trying to bring people into line for old deeds and and in so doing becoming negatively absorbed with past friends and past deeds, However leaving every offence behind me, meant that I was very incapable of defending the weak, I had left the art of fighting so far to one side and that is painful when you have to watch another being smashed in,at least psychologically because you don’t have what it takes to be much help to such a person..
    It does make one happier to be less exigent about what you expect from others, I was happier when i let things go, but i was not talking of what I believed in. Doing so is stressful it means you have to stick your neck out but also satisfying, nor was I able able to fight, so letting it be has its drawbacks.

    Do the abused children learn to despise people so that they are hard to live with because their scorn for others makes them harsh on others?

    I heard an interview with The film director Fellinni in which he said his nanny had made him watch her havign sex with aubergine. He seemed to have felt his parents should have been there to stop him from having to suffer from this outrage and he did not like them, is that one of the effects of child abuse.
    . Women are a bit odd in some of his films. Is this the reason they have sometimes the strange character they seem to have, are over dressed and thoughtless?
    Of course if your abusers are religious, this can make people stop being religious.
    I suppose were religion comes in to helping with the whole question of abuse, God is love, not for legionnaires it seems, he is going to send everyone to burn for the smallest thing, so those who love him are obliged to try to love all others. Christ himself was badly treated, so, in Christian-ism, as an abused person, you are not alone, he was abused too. Also, his identity remained what it is for us, much as others abused him and did him to death.
    Or, that in religion we are asked to forgive the trespasses of those who trespassed against us or that we try as religious people to understand and so forgive others, except,from what i have gathered none of that is what the the legion teaches, from what I have gathered they teach what the inquisition teaches. Try to make sure that the bad do badly, so that others will think it is better not to be bad, which for them is love but it does not seem a love the wicked will be able to understand.
    As they find everyone bad, they will absolutely do for the economy if they are capable of making everyone they see as bad do badly.

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  5. The book I mention in the last letter, “Orphan of Islam”, by Alexander Khan, is also interesting because of the parallels that exist between his experience with strict Islam and the experiences I have been told about of strict catholic Spain, of people who lived in Spain before and just after the civil war. How the church behaved then in Spain gives one an idea of where the ideas legionnaires talk of have come from or of an extremely strict church that we in the North had little idea about. It also shreds light on the experience one gets if one knows someone from the legion. The legion have maybe their roots in a part of the catholic empire that was very intolerant.
    The Bishop of Boston, If i remember right it was of Boston, asks older Catholics to talk of the Catholicism of the sixties, for me the late sixties and seventies, of the church when it was a gentle and loving religion.
    In Alexander Khan book he mentions his life in England in a very strict Islamic community as being suffocating and horrible, iIsuppose there is a point in which strictness just means that human nature is left
    so few things to do that it causes considerable anguish.
    I must add, I don’t consider strict Islam to be the only sort of Islam that exists. I have learnt a little of less strict groups, such as the Suffis or just less strict bits of normal Islam.

    ;If you read the Spanish play write, Garcia Lorca’s plays, you get an idea of how very suffocating Spanish society before the civil war used to be society. He wrote a play called, “The House of Bernada Alba”, which is about a woman who keeps her seven girls shut in at home in case they should sin if they were allowed out. It ends with one daughter dying and the mother at the funeral, wild with joy that her daughter has died a virgin! It would be hard for a woman to keep such a tight rein on her daughters had she not lived in a place in which a large proportion of the neighbours sympathised so with trying, willy nilly, to stop people sinning and in which sex is almost the sin of sins while and being extremely manipulative and cruel is not. I have heard tremendous stories of Spain in that time.
    My husband’s aunt by marriage, had spent the first years of her married life with her mother in law who instated them in the bedroom next to hers, which meant according to gossip that they did not dare to make use of the rights of marriage..
    She told me that her mother in law had not allowed her to play the piano or sing she thought such activities a waste of time, the entertainments in the house were embroidering household linen towels and such, and so making the house look all together smarter.
    A wife is there to serve the family. Dancing and singing were frivolous, still are, by the religious and also by others, who can hardly be called moralists,, who caught by the messages of their ancestors, considered dancing a form of sex. I like dancing as a form of exercise. Her parents in Salamanca had had a piano she had learnt to play and she sang before she had married.
    Alexandrer Khan says that in England, going to walk on the hills would have seemed too much like having fun for those in the Islamic community. Also he says that, the teaching he received led him to look at the ground when he walked past a woman. My father in law looked at the ground when he past a woman at least when he was younger even when he was older he was still given to looking at the ground a bit. I knew him he was awfully nice. His sister was said to wear four pairs of pants, as a protection against men it was supposed . She never married.She died before i met the family.
    A woman I knew in the village where my husbands family had a house, told me that when she was young she had not been able to walk down the high street when she went to church, in case she met boys in the high street, she had had to go down back streets. She had hardly been allowed out . She lived with an aunt, her two parents having died when they were young. Must have been a a dumb lot of young men if they did not find their way onto the back streets.

    Alexander khans comments on this sort of religious severity are that it made life so absolutely horrible for him. It is hard maybe, for us in the west to realise how such things could be enormously oppressive. It seems to me that legionnaires attempt to have such an oppressive and reductive effect on the lives of the people they try to form.
    They seem to disapprove of the television, I cant tell you how much I have learnt from the television and I watch lots of frivolous stuff, sit coms and children’s programs seem to me to be full of information on psychiatry. Of course you can watch extremely serious documentaries as well as sit coms.
    Other activities get labelled by the person who has told me she is a legionnaire, as being not for such as me, Activities like writing or informing myself of anything or informing others of anything, for one reason or another,get levbeled as beign not for me. Or, I am told that others will not like it if i have an opinion or that their things are not for me to comment on if I have an opinion on anything that is the business of many, such as, how to look after the village, or even that i must look after my garden in the same as my neighbours.
    Any self respecting totalitarian groups stops people from learning or divulging information. They, the legion and to a certain extent any old Catholics but the legions really put their backs into it, legionaires will as everyone ow threaten to stay with you till you die if you don’t take heed of them, stop you doing things by making you feel lacking in virtue if you do anything except eating other peoples heads out to stop them from going to hell.
    Normal Catholics can be inclined to have a great fear of doing things than other members of the public, as they are afraid of being ambitious,vain or materialistic. Materialistic because taking an interest in things, can mean you earn money from them. The legion really eat into one for doing anything not prescribed by a legionnaire, they treat you as if you are vain or wasting you time for learning or for talking, vain or ambitious or interfering.
    The Chinese say, “if not me who, and if not now when”? That stops one from being pusillanimous, out of it and ineffectual, to give a good few return shoots, of the moralistic kind, on doing or not doing things.

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  6. The moment that made me feel that Marcial Maciel was evil was when I found that, at least found, if my connection is what she claims to be, that the legionaires were persuaded to do what has been done to the girls in Regnum CHristi, tie them up in a hundred knots, to their own family members.
    The reason given for them to attack their own family being that those are the ones that they must most want to get into heaven. Attacking people being for the purpose of getting them into heaven it seems.
    If you read the stories of the girls in Regnum christi they were attacked for things like being fat for one, so they make personal comments.
    I have known being attacked for supposedly having bad actions and bad motives. How do you prove your motives? .They can destroy you that way, without you being able to do anything to protect yourself. These attacks on my character were the ones that most pained me., Apart from making you look bad, they make you look dishonerable and mean. They attack your credit in your own eyes and you see no reason for them not to tell the whole world that you are awful if they tell you you are awful to your face, sothey are social assasination. They are terrifying.
    They attack you for being friendly because they pretend, your friendlyness is interested or false which makes me afraid to be friendly.
    The attacks are so mentally and psychically agressive that it seems unreal and so as if it would be impossible to get anyone to believe how uncomfortable you were made to feel.
    The stories from Regnum Christy bare witness to how damaging ththe attacks on the character of people they are training are, the attacks so often have brought on sever illnesses in hte girls in regnum christi.

    If a person is persuaded to attack their own family then the person they have destroyed is some person they are very close to, also doing so eats away at the connections that are strongest for them in their lives. How cruel was it of Marcial Maciel to get people eating into their own families it seems to me to have been a very very diabolic bit of design for his sect.
    I read the english play rites Marlow’s play, Dr Faustus at some point in my life and in that work, after sellling his soul to the devil, Dr faustus started to do awful things like putting ground glass on the steps of a cathedrdal so as to hurt pilgrims knees, and distracted himself calling up the ghost of helen of troy ont the stage, THese acts are so mildly evil that one can only think that Marlowe was laughing at the whole business butpersuading his mind washed followers to eat away at their own family, by telling them that they should hurt them so as to help them go to heaven, Marcials methods are so very rough must mean . that the person applying them cannot be at peace with themselves, some part of that poor, twisted by rotten theologies,persons mind, anxious as they have been mad eto become to get people to go to heaven or to stop themselves going to hell by working themselves silly to get others into heaven,it seems that if they dont do their utmost to cure others, they might themselves go to hell, must feel that maybe a system that gives anorexia to healthy girls is not going to help alcoholics say, if htey have such in the family and so they must suffer because they are destroying a loved one.
    There are parts of the psychy that are aware of things the coonscious mind is refusing or incapable of seeing. If you are given a highly reasoned reason to be cruel to be kind,when ithe cruelty is most unlikely to have the kind end, if there is no part of modern thinking that backs up the theory that such is likely to bring about the desired effect, much as you are meant to believe it will, much as the rational and besotted by religion and acts of faith brain insists on believing that it will work, there is bound to be another part of the brain that knows it won’t.
    Marcial system persuades people to put at risk the relationship they have with the people with who they have their closest ties. HIs saddism was refined.
    They have a tactic which saves them from everyones hatred, which is to persuade everyone tht some other member of the family is the abrasive one, this tactic saves them from the families hatred, the more honeralbe excuse for the tactic is that it is necessary, as a cover which allows them to go on doing their good work without being stopped.
    The whole set up involves them in ever more activities that hurt their loved ones and if one was to convince a legionaire that they had been duped how much pain is one setting up for them. If htey stop believing hta ttheere is a good motive for all the things they have doen arent they likely to suffer immensely? Rome needs to pronounce on the fact that trying to take down people egos too far might just destroy them.Maybe it wants to defend destroying them , it should say as much if it does and so give us a chance to argue with them about their unkindness and crazy methods of curing souls.

    I have heard that the Dominicans, who were responsible for the inquisition were very good at seeing peoples faults of character and correcting them and so being kind though harsh, because they make people know themselves better.
    My experience of the sort of activity, meant to show one that one was deceiving oneself and acting selfishly, is that they are so good at finding bad motives for good things, that they are incapable of seeing or believing a kind action. This occupational distortion of others, turns the whole world into psychopaths.
    They say they love the sinner but hate the sin but in fact,if they meet a sinner, and who is not such, they cannot believe that they could have got anything right, they seem to believe that a sinner in one thing must be wrong minded in everything, so they verbal annul the worth of every act of that person. This is in all truth to hate the whole person. The person is just one big sin for them.
    I don’t know how to argue it theologically but I had always learnt that to make people believe themselves bad when they aren’t is evil in its self.
    If people try to do good and always get told they have just been selfish, they are as like to despair of ever getting anywhere, go into revolt mode,as to become saints. As likely to go into depression mode,to get to the sea of despond rather that into feeling deeply called to talk of good and saintlyness. Or, into rat in a corner mode with its consequent increase of agression in this world. The vatican should study the repercussions of to ardent criticism of people, and it should let people whose have not had their minds eaten out by living in a big mutual admiration group with no ideas ever getting into their heads, help them do so.
    The Dominican system is not just a way to teach people to be wary of their motives, used too agressivly it is a way to annul them.
    What good is a person if they cant give testimony to their experience of life and consequent wisdom and if you find a way of persuading them they cant think straight ever, the legion don’t look to make you think harder of your real motives, on occasion, they just always, as a sort of mania,try find a lousy motive for everyones acts, unless the poeple be as important as Marcial say. If people just always tell a person they are not good , then who will that person be to talk of anything. they have been anulled.

    There is a spanish children rudish song that goes,

    Franco, Franco, tiene el culo blanco,
    Su mujer lo lava con Ariel
    Dona Sophia,[ queen of Spain] lo lava con lejia
    Y Pujol [head of the Catalan government} lo lava con mistol.

    Franco has a white bottom, his wife washes it with Ariel.
    Queen Sophia [the ,ex kings wife], washes it with bleach
    and Pujol’s [the head of the Catalan government}, with mistol.

    mistol is a spanish make of detergent for dishes.

    I have wondered if it is not a very catholic song, that refers to the Catholic wives job of keeping their husbands super extra straight.

    As the Legionaires use telepathy, they are up too a whole lot of things that people can’t prove they have done.
    As they use telepathy, they use it when knocking the hell out of people, talking of what they do is as like to get one into a loony bin as to put a stop to the psychically terrible things that go on in this sect.

    As Marcial Maciel said in his letters, according to Xavier Leger he did, I have not read his letters, beware of evil cults . Why do bad people always talk of what they do by talking of others doing what they do.
    A Spanish lady mayoress of Madrid, Esperanza Aguirre who was famous for corruption, when she was voted out and another woman Manuela Carmena voted in, said a woman should not be in that job were there was so much money floating around. That was a very amusing moment.

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  7. If you have a legionnaire in the family, they are capable of organising street recruiters who will try to get to you and more terrible they will try to take away the heart and minds of your children when they are still young surreptitiously. If you have such a person in your family and ihey are not likely to admit they are such, it is best not to let them anywhere near anyone you love, they may tear them to pieces as the girls in Regnum Christi camps are torn to pieces, as well as making them into legionnaires.
    It is really a case of, don’t let a catholic near anyone you like if you can avoid it, at least till you are sure they have changed.

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  8. My information is that legionnaires are taught feel a first need to attack their families, as the family are those they most want to get into heaven.
    This is not the end of the problem for the family as as far as having a member who is part of the legion. The other part of the problem is that they also make their families attack each other using very reasonable arguments such as that members of your family need to know what is wrong with them. All you can do when you realise how very irresponsible the person who has advised you to be altogether nastier than you other wise would have been to those you love is, irresponsible not because they are frivolous but because the base of ideas that forms their opinions is terrible, is very sorry that you too have been fighting loved ones who needed your sympathies more than they might have done had there not been a person causing problems for them with every other member of the family.

    My information is that legionaires are terribly anti any sort of happiness. If you talk of making people happy the answer is that that is bad for them. Pain is what they most approve, emootional or physical. They are tremendous.
    I do have a book for children of Saint john of the cross’s life,written in comic form full of drawings and in it ihere is a scene between Saint John of the cross and Saint Teresa of Avila in whch the two of them are depicted happily having an exchange on how beneficial pain is, which somehow makes me laugh when i remember the drawing and the mad enthusiasm in the faces of the two great saints but it is not funny when you hear a legionaire determine to make everyones life as hard as possible. Maybe that is because i know how very hard they do make peoples lives.
    The girls who were part of Regnum Christi in this site also talk of having been expected to fight their fathers because these did not agree with them being part of Regnum Christi.
    It is hard to be cross and then also be loving or at least it is for me. Most especially when your crossness makes the problem worse if anything or uncovers how very hard some loved one will fight not to give me any back up.It is one thing that they dont and another that they are so determined to think bad of me and not to help me. I had been more or less happy with each person having the shortcomings they had , having a character that was not much good at taking peoples complaints seriously, when i fought for that person to lose their character faults, it did not work and our relationship got much worse. It was a disaster.
    The Dalai Lama criticises Christians for thinking this is a one trip journey and so trying to push people faster than they are able to go towards realisation. Often that seems to me to be the sensible attitude towards people.It is no harder to believe in reincarnation than in heaven. reincarnation makes sense as a way to bring humans up to a different level or so it seems to me.

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  9. I have mentioned, , a short story of F. Scot Fitzgerald’s that talks about apostasy implies a complete damnation only on ht esupposition of a previous perfect faith.
    I did not know what apostasy was when i read the short story, just thought that you cannot deny god or religion in a really terrible way unless you totally understand it to be true.
    I have found the story and so will give give a better account of it here than I have given before.
    The story is called, “Absolution”. The boy protagonist of the story, who goes to see a priest because he is worried about his soul, has lied in confession.
    The priest who had taken his confession had asked if he had lied and in a moment of wanting to sound better than he was, to be more of a hero, he says, “Oh, no, father, I never lie”. He then finds he has to go to communion with his lie about lying on his soul because he is too afraid of his overly fierce father to dare not to go to communion.

    The priest whose advice he is asking for one says.’You look as if things went glimmering’. As in, the boys desire to shine had over come him.
    Secondly he said that things shine from afar, but when you get in close they become more human, less beautiful morally or heroically, my resume of what he say, which is to say that the ability to be Galahad vanishes when real life walks in the door, the need to lie to a violent father for example becomes more important than doing something against the commandments.
    Thirdly he said, ‘apostasy only implies complete damnation if you have perfect faith’. Rereading this story makes me understand the horror in the voice of the priest I rang up to say i wanted apostasy. I rang the church I was baptised in. I don’t know how else to tell the church convincingly, that i am not their business.Had no idea it meant damnation. Believe that the modern sixties education I recieved did not include threatening people with damnation. My brohter in law had talked about apostasy to me. He said he would get it if the church ran the papers through faster than they do. Just heard a joke about how lengthy the process is from a Spanish comedian tonight. I always seem to hear something about anything i happen to start talking about however little it is usually part of conversation.
    People try to get apostasies here in Spain, they say it takes years for the church to give it to you.
    I imagine the boy in the short story was more worried about being in sin than about apostasis , Mayhap doing something that gets you into sin is a sort of denial of ones faith.
    That is the inquisition arguement, the other arguement is that people will go and sin without losing an iota of faith. there are masses of catholics who have not shaken off their sins. I always believed your faith made you go on trying though you had not got there yet, I did not learn not that you had to be a saint to be catholic.
    myself tend to make my own decisions about what is a sin, It makes me internally annoyed when people are catholic and do things they think they should not, then they invove others in their own,do don’t muddle. I do if i believe in it and dont if i dont. That will not make priests happy, it takes away their leverage.
    It was not sad trying to apostate, the sad bit was not succeeding, I so needed to free my self of street recruiters.
    My mother was protestant and i was closer to her family than to my fathers sisters. I knew so many good protestants, I went to two protestant schools and two catholic ones, so protestant teachers as well as protestant family members had my admiration so that my admiration for people of one other religon was great,that has a psychological weight nothing else can have. There is no way i feel that the only religion is just one but other people whose immersion in a catholic atmosphere was complete maybe cannot imagine religion in any other atmosphere.

    As to what the priest says about perfect faith, I imagine, that if you have perfect faith and do something that, that goes against it, you are then renouncing what you absolutely know is good, That would be a big bit of treason. I see perfect faith as knowing something is good, or God or the only religion, not as taking it on faith, which is to say, it is perfect when it is no longer faith but something proven for you and you deny it. I see perfect faith as what someone who is a great mystic might have so tha they have had a revelations that prove such to be the case. MInd you with the religiouses ability to make things look miraculous revelations are not to be trusted i> I am thinking of someone who has seen god so to speak not someone who has seen an aparent miracle or two and so is a person who absolutely knows their faith is right and then says it is not. Forgetting of course, that there are great saints in other religions who are also mystics an who know they are right.

    Mighty good story, or so it seems to me. The priests answers are good.

    The bit i don’t like about the story is that this good priest,who so ably, kindly and intelligently answers the boys worries, is described as being in a musty room, quite crunched up with some sort of emotional or existential pain and tedium from just sitting in his room.
    It seems to me that the man who is so good at helping out this boy would spend a lot of his time in the light, Ones room or house, in many sorts of thinking, psychological writings and such, religious ones, being symbolic of ones self and this man has a fine self, it seems to me, so light should have been in him and with him.
    He also seems a bit tormented by the nastiness of the outside world, while if I had written the story, as he is so able to help steamy humanity, I would have had him enjoying them rather than worried to be out among them. When and if you can help people, their problems seem so much less worrying.
    Mind you, in so many of the more serious novels I read, for the first part of my life I just read,in class and out, I never did my homework i just read nearly all the time, my writing abilities did not half suffer as a result and so did my exam results. The serious novels I read would have been pre sixties in the majority of cases, were works written by people who seemed to think people are endlessly bored by life, so maybe Fitzgerald just had novelist of his epochs normal twist on adult life when he describes of a priest who has little to do but sit in his room. I have not done much that was so called fun but I have been so worried about having to watch bullying and such and not knowing what to do about it, it was not something I was brought up to deal with, that I have not felt bored in adult life.
    Must say that the legionnaires views have me writhing in anguish but the sea of despond is one thing that no religion approves of, nor does common sense, so I only allow myself small amounts of writhing. The legion is like the Inquisition except in that all torture has to be psychological not physical. Sinners have to suffer and be fined,seems to be the foundations of their form of Christianity and they are experts at discovering that everyone is a sinner. Also sinners must be seen to do badly as a example to others, so they do their utmost to stop you doing well. If they stop everyone doing well, they will be a menace to the economy of any country they infest.

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